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Re: [ARSCLIST] CD-R question

Good Morning Tom,

I don't think you snipped the point I was trying to make. Here is a part of my post:

<snip>
The quality of the music may be better, but the quality of the media (as evidenced by the dumping of crappy CD-R media in every store, from Wal-Mart to Walgreens) does not relieve my confidence.
<snip>

My point here is that if someone is going to use CD-R media, PLEASE don't use the cheap-o stuff that you find literally everywhere. Furthermore, make multiple copies if you can with different batches of media. There have been many posts by experts about good and bad media types.

Regarding any difference of opinion we may have, please understand that I am not advocating "managed storage with off-site backup" for the casual collector that wants to digitize his or her holdings. That's a pretty long leap from burning CD-Rs, and not one that I would recommend given the scenario. Additionally, I've never recommended people store files on hard drives - BAD decision.

The points I tried to make (and obviously didn't do a good job!) were:

1. We don't have any idea if optical media PLAYERS will be available in 50 years
2. Even if I bought a pallet full of CD players, I cannot guarantee they will operate in 50 years (even if I shrink-wrapped a technician to store with them)
3. The proliferation of various formats is not necessarily a good thing (you mention photoCD, I could add many more)
4. The CD players that are being built now are essentially "throw- aways" (read - junk)

As you mentioned, there are many "in the cloud" storage options that could be considered as alternate backup locations (Amazon S3, .mac accounts, etc.). They are popping up every day - however, they too may go out of business and I'm out of luck....but for now, they are realistic backup alternatives that are extremely cheap. External drives as you mentioned are good as well. In the archival world, I guess they call it "geographical separation" - I would refer to it as "covering your backside".

It is not a "Kia" vs. "Cadillac" scenario, there are many "Chevrolet - Ford" solutions out there (but ouch, I hate making digital storage comparisons to car manufacturers.....).

At the end of the day, the collector that occasionally scans this list and draws the conclusion that "make a CD-R and you'll be fine" is, in my opinion, leaving with a misguided mandate.

I have NO problem with well-made CD-Rs - but you have to factor in the reality that you will probably have to migrate those as well sometime, to whatever "flavor of the year" is regarding digital storage available to the masses.

Actively managed storage can take many forms, from full-scale monoliths with high costs, to simply pulling the CD-Rs you have off of the shelf every 3-5 years and bumping them to another batch.

John Spencer
BMS/ Chace LLC
email: jspencer@xxxxxxxxxxxx
web: www.bmschace.com



On Jan 6, 2008, at 7:18 AM, Tom Fine wrote:

Hi John:

Happy New Year all around.

I think a big difference of opinion we have is that I think it's a Great Thing to have many different formats/standards for the 5" laser disc. To me, that's insurance that reader/playback drives will be made for a long time. The trend so far is that every time a new format/standard comes along, soon afterward the manufacturing MO becomes universal players/drive that read/play ALL previous formats. Look in a modern DVD player user manual and check out how many formats you can play on these things, including photoCD (something I'd argue is a fringe format that never really caught on with the masses) and data CD's full of MP3 and sometimes WinMedia files. And some players now accept flash media so you can take pix and video cards right out of your digi-camera and look at them right on your widescreen flat-panel (sometimes the flat-panels themselves take the cards directly). My point is, this is truly a massive Mass Market and it's not going to just dry up anytime soon. All these "issues" about the hi-def formats will get settled in the market and universal players will then quickly happen -- if that doesn't happen in a couple of years please regurgitate this message and tell me "I told you so."

As for CDR media, I don't see what your issue is. Of course a long- term archive should be on migrated and mirrored hard drives nowadays. But CDR is cheap and available and I'd bet that higher- grade media will be OK in proper storage conditions as a backup. What is much more worrisome to me is a newcomer to this list getting an idea that CDR is a "bad format" and then doing a bunch of transfers onto a single hard drive and having all that work just blow up and be unusable one day. Hard drives are KNOWN to fail, and usually in a lot fewer than 10 years. CDR is THEORIZED to fail at some point (what exact point seems to be a matter of great debate) when stored under proper conditions (ie low dust, low light, low humiditiy, proper temp). So I would say to the small-scale archivist or collector -- most certainly do make liberal use of CDR media but don't rely on it as your ONLY digital format for the long- term. And for goodness sake, invest in a second disc drive and at least keep a local mirror of everything. You'll be so grateful when that computer konks out one day (hopefully the konk-out didn't take out your second hard drive, but my experience is you're relatively safe if the second drive is external -- barring something like a massive power problem or a house fire, of course).

If you have an extensive investment of time or your transfers are of great monetary or cultural value, I'd argue that you gotta bite the bullet and go with managed storage with an off-site secure backup system in place. But this expensive/complex/industrial-grade solution is just not appropriate or in financial reach for most people on this list (ie small-scale archivists and collectors). One relatively cheap/easy thing to do if you have just a few real treasures among an otherwise ordinary collection of digital media is to simply FTP those treasures to your website if you have one. Most website hosts these days give you a 1 gig or more of storage as part of the package, and more gigs usually doesn't cost anything. The idea is, there's your remote backup. You of course can do much better, but this is the cheap/easy/available solution for the small archive or collector. Make the files inaccessible from your website if they have copyright or other sensitivities, of course. There are also plenty of 3rd parties online who offer free or near-free file storage. For instance, gmail and yahoo give you a 1 gig mailbox, so you can simply e-mail yourself a file or two. I'm sure this all sounds crazy to the inustrial-strength crowd, but like I said, most members of this list don't work for well-funded universities or professional data-management companies so they need small-scale/low-cost solutions. I'm throwing out some "Kia" ideas here. If you can afford "Cadillac," definitely go that way.

-- Tom Fine

----- Original Message ----- From: "John Spencer" <js@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <ARSCLIST@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 10:17 PM
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] CD-R question


<snip>

Here's where we diverge on opinion - there are currently (I think) 13 DVD specs (at least 6 of which are not recognized by the DVD patent- holder consortium), and now we have blu-ray and DVD-HD - a battle on many levels (one is the movie studios desire to continue to have a physical disc to sell that is not easily copied). This convoluted "soup" of formats (notwithstanding patent issues) does not convince me that the life of the CD will be greatly enhanced.

<snip> 

Best regards,
John

John Spencer
BMS/ Chace LLC
1801 8th Ave. S.  Suite 200
Nashville, TN 37203
office (615) 385-1251
fax (615) 385-0153
cell (615) 714-1199
email: jspencer@xxxxxxxxxxxx
web: www.bmschace.com



On Jan 5, 2008, at 8:15 PM, Tom Fine wrote:

You could think, once a medium goes out of "mass" status, how many years until all the playback equipment dies and nothing new is being made? Well, when exactly? LPs haven't been a mass medium for almost 2 decades now. Still plenty of turntables and cartridges available and the LP medium has a healthy niche (some could argue more economically viable than most CD releases). How about cassettes? They seem to be a quicker-to-the-grave medium. CD's passed cassettes in I believe the early 90's. But cassettes are still a mass medium in some parts of the 3rd world. You can still buy a variety of cassette decks and walkmans:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_kk_1?ie=UTF8&search-alias=audio- video&field-keywords=cassette%20player

Now, there's also the argument that magnetic tape and grooved disks are technologies that can be replicated with mid-20th century level or older technologies whereas CD playback is, well, somewhat akin to rocket science.

But, 5" discs got another leg with the DVD medium and they might get yet another fresh wind with hi-def discs. Blowing the other way is the wind of downloads and iPods -- where there are not physical mass media but rather computer files transmitted over the Internet and then perhaps around homes to media-less playback systems. I don't doubt the future is one without packaged physical mass media for audio and video content, but it's not all there yet and the installed and owned base of 5" discs is enormous (I _think_ that more CD's were sold worldwide so far than all mesaured sales of all LPs since 1949 -- and that's not counting the fact that there might be a 1:1 ratio or greater of pressed CD's to legal or illegal copies that are essentially bit-by-bit replicas). Plus, as of now the quality of the 5" disc media is usually better than what you can get over the ether on your media-less playback system (that will not be true forever, indeed hopefully not for much longer).

So bottom line, I'll give the 5" discs another 50 years of viability but I don't think they will be the dominant mass medium in the "first world" for too much longer -- and I think the places still cassette-dominant will leapfrog over the 5" disc media and go right to the over-ether media-less model. For what it's worth, I have a 1986 CD player that still works just fine. To my great joy, it was designed future-looking enough to be able to play most CDR media. The make is Teac and the price was not very high when I bought it as a poor college kid blowing some summer loot, so this was no high-grade special machine in its day. My point is, 20-year- old CD technology works fine in a modern context. I have no reason to believe my 2005 vintage Marantz SACD/DVD/CD player won't work in 20 years. That would get past the 50-year-viability mark for the CD medium (introduced 1982) and I betcha 5" disc players will be rolling off Asian assembly lines for at least another decade, probably longer.

Let me just add that I think managed hard-drive-based archiving is a better idea nowadays and will be an ever-better idea as the storage media get cheaper, denser and hopefully more reliable.

-- Tom Fine

----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard L. Hess" <arclists@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <ARSCLIST@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] CD-R question


At 08:11 PM 2008-01-05, John Spencer wrote:
Richard (and more so to Mr. Friedman),

Do we have any concrete expectations that CD drives will be available
in 50 years? Please point me to the information that guarantees that,
I would be happy to be reassured that CD drives will be available
then. I tend to be much more pessimistic about hardware/ software
availability given the 50-year target mentioned.

Hi, John,

Happy New Year!

I think we'll be in as good or better shape playing back CDs in 50 years as we will be playing back reel tapes in 35-40 years which is approx the 50-year time frame that LoC was still advocating transfers to 2-track tapes.

There are just too many, and they're not going to all break.

As with any media, as the supply of machines dries up it's the archive's responsibility to migrate/reformat before they cannot. I think we've had this discussion before <smile>.

Cheers,

Richard

Richard L. Hess email: richard@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Aurora, Ontario, Canada (905) 713 6733 1-877-TAPE-FIX
Detailed contact information: http://www.richardhess.com/tape/ contact.htm
Quality tape transfers -- even from hard-to-play tapes.



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