Re: [ARSCLIST] Vanguard Classics reappears in 2 cd sets

[steven c <stevenc@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

My experience seems to have taught me that all this valuable sound should
have been preserved on shellac discs (as long as they weren't dropped...!)
Steven C. Barr

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tom Fine" <tflists@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Hi Scott:
>
> I don't know what the Hollywood studios did with mag-films of that era
(acetate backed stock). I'd
> guess the valuable stuff got safety-copied to polyester stock at some
point and eventually digitized
> for DVD re-release. What you describe with the Everest films would be
possible with that vintage
> acetate-backed film. But the biggest problem is vinegar (chemical
disintegration) and warpage. As I
> said in a previous post, both are fixable to the point of playability but
it's very expensive. The
> tape camp definitely wins the day on this. Back in the brief moment for
mag-film as a record-album
> mastering format, the tape guys said tape would last longer with fewer
storage problems. They were
> right. But the films sounded better!
>
> -- Tom Fine
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Scott D. Smith" <lists@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <ARSCLIST@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 11:01 PM
> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Vanguard Classics reappears in 2 cd sets
>
>
> Tom,
>
> I got the same information a few years back about the films being in
> Germany, although it wasn't really definative. This was prior to the
> SACD project that Universal started.
>
> I never really got a straight answer on the Everest material, although
> one person I spoke with was of the opinion that the films were in  bad
> shape (as in, the oxide was falling off the base). I was never able to
> confirm this, but given the history of how many record companies have
> dealt with their masters, I wouldn't be surprised.
>
> As you point out, SACD sales have been less than staller, so I don't
> look for any interest on the parts of the record labels any time soon.
>
> In regards to the Command material, I would once again be interested
> specifically in the 3 track film masters for the L/C/R spread, as
> opposed to the 2 channel mixdowns, even though they may at this point
> be in better condition than the film originals.
>
> In any event, it's truly a shame that nothing is being done to
> preserve what is left of the material (if any). (I am making an
> assumption that whoever owns the rights haven't done anything).
>
> Although a market for the material may not exist at the moment, who
> knows what might happen 50 years from now.
>
> --Scott
>
>
> Quoting Tom Fine <tflists@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
>
> > Hi Scott:
> >
> > Last I heard, all the films that still exist are in the vault in
> > Germany. I don't want to speculate what condition anything is in. As
> > you know, Universal made 3-channel SACD's of some Mercury films in
> > Germany. As I understand it, the SACD project is not active right now.
> > No Command films were ever turned into CD's or SACD's that I know of. I
> > was told they are not in good shape. I don't know any facts -- even
> > second-hand -- about the Everest films.
> >
> > I should point out that from everything I've read, SACD sales have been
> > underwhelming so don't count on record companies having too much
> > interest to spend too much for that kind of thing.
> >
> > Regarding the Command material, if 2-track "cutting masters" were made,
> > it could be reissued for less production costs. This was what was done
> > with the Virgil Fox material. Though one generation removed from the
> > master films, the 2-tracks will sound a lot better than a lot of stuff
> > that came later.
> >
> > -- Tom Fine
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott D. Smith"
<lists@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <ARSCLIST@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 2:12 PM
> > Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Vanguard Classics reappears in 2 cd sets
> >
> >
> > Hi Tom,
> >
> > A few years ago I attempted to research what the situation was
> > regarding the condition of both the Everest and Mercury catalog that
> > existed on 35mm film, and ran into a brick wall on both accounts. I
> > never got to the Command material.
> >
> > My intention at the time was to try and determine if there was
> > material suitable for eventual release in three channel on DVD-A (this
> > was based on what I knew of the mike techniques employed by your
> > father and Bob Eberenz at the time).
> >
> > I was stonewalled by the idiots in licensing in both regards, and
> > never got any straight answers as to the condition or whereabouts of
> > the film material (other than what I knew of the condition of the
> > Mercury material used for the CD reissues supervised by your mother).
> >
> > It is truly sad that we may never get to hear what was really on the
> > masters at this point.
> >
> > Scott Smith
> >
> > Chicago Audio Works, Inc.
> >
> > Quoting Tom Fine <tflists@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
> >
> >> Hi David:
> >>
> >> This is great info, I'm certianly not going to berate you.
> >>
> >> I can't understand what "last of its kind" machine Omega was claiming
> >> to use. I had heard they used 3-track tapes played back on an Ampex
> >> 3200 transport with MR-70 heads and electronics. If their "last of its
> >> kind" was indeed playing films, it was not near last of its kind.
> >> 3-track mag-film machines are still in use all over the place. In NY,
> >> one need only go to Astoria to see masses of mag-film machines in daily
> >> use.
> >>
> >> Whatever those guys out in CA told you is probably closer to the truth
> >> than my 3rd-hand info.
> >>
> >> Hey, if someone on this list has a viable reissue label, let's talk
> >> about Command Classics. I think Universal wants a pretty hefty units
> >> commitment, so it's gotta be someone with some marketing and
> >> distribution abilities. A 500 or 1000 unit release won't cut it with
> >> those guys.
> >>
> >> -- Tom Fine
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Lewis" <davlew@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> To: <ARSCLIST@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 2:38 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Vanguard Classics reappears in 2 cd sets
> >>
> >>
> >> Then what did DCC use to make thier reissues,a few years back?
> >>
> >> Tom Fine <tflists@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:  This is the key fact
about
> >> Everest, from the Vanguard Classics website:
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------
> >> WHAT ABOUT EVEREST?
> >>
> >> That's the most asked question from consumers who visit our site. When
> >> Artemis Records purchased
> >> Vanguard Classics from the Omega Records Group in 2003, we declined to
> >> purchase the license to the
> >> Everest label held by Omega. We know that many of you are looking for
the
> >> catalog of recordings
> >> available from Everest, but Vanguard Classics no longer distributes the
> >> Everest label.
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------
> >> (Tom continues...)
> >> As I understand it, and I might be wrong ...
> >>
> >> Everest is now owned by Universal, and Omega no longer exists as a
working
> >> entity so they no longer
> >> have a license to release any Everest recordings. Universal also owns
the
> >> libraries of the only two
> >> other labels to extensively use 35mm mag-film, Mercury (which Universal
> >> acquired as part of
> >> Polygram) and Command (which was owned by former MCA group that morphed
into
> >> Universal, acquired by
> >> MCA as part of ABC Records).
> >>
> >> As I understand it, and again I might be wrong, Omega made their 3ch
SACD's
> >> from the backup 3-track
> >> tapes (or the original sessions were done on tape, not film), not from
> >> Everest's magnetic films,
> >> which I've been told are in terrible condition and many are not around
> >> anymore.
> >> ****
> >>
> >> I remember speaking with Duane Martuge, who was working as a rep for
> >> Omega/Everest/Vanguard Classics when they first rolled out the Everest
> >> product line in about 1996 or so. I met him at the Allegro Conference.
Duane
> >> said that they **did** work from the Everest films and utilized a
machine at
> >> Sony that "was the last of its kind" to play back the films.
Apparently,
> >> this machine was mothballed just as the Everest project reached
completion.
> >> At one point Omega/Everest was including a little insert with photos
within
> >> the Everest CD releases to show how they did it technically. But do
note
> >> that the re-issue program was very limited - perhaps only 8-16 short
CDs
> >> ever resulted from it. So Tom's assertion that "they are in terrible
> >> condition and may not be around anymore" might well be correct. The
> >> Northridge earthquake also damaged a great many of the Everest
masters - a
> >> pity - many reels were bent in half.
> >>
> >> Tom:
> >> Some of the Everest jazz stuff has turned up on a small label the name
of
> >> which escapes me (Woody
> >> Herman, Tito Puente and some others). If I recall correctly, they noted
that
> >> the material was
> >> licensed from Universal, which backs up my belief that Everest is now
owned
> >> by Universal.
> >>
> >> The DCC reissues of Everest Jazz material were supplied by Bernie
Solomon,
> >> who was part of Everest initially and also had a share in DCC. These
would
> >> have been taken from tapes, and I wish that there had been more of them
done
> >> than the couple that appeared. At the time at which I met Bernie, in
the
> >> late 1990s, he still owned a large part of the Everest catalogue, and
had
> >> issued some of the classical items on a terrible, but persistent, label
> >> called Bescol (i.e. "Bernie E. Solomon Company Limited" or something
like
> >> that) and had leased these and still more to LaserLight. Bernie hasn't
been
> >> dead a very long time, and if Artemis/Vanguard decided to pass on the
> >> Everest classical catalogue, perhaps it has reverted to his, or someone
> >> else's, estate. Remember that Bernie Solomon (Everest) and Seymour
Solomon
> >> (Vanguard) were brothers, so this might complicate matters of legacy
> >> considerably. If Universal purchased Everest, I have yet to hear of it,
but
> >> they don't crow very loudly when they make such acquisitions.
> >>
> >> Tom:
> >>
> >> I wish there was enough interest
> >> in the Command orchestral stuff to license and reissue some of it. The
> >> Pittsburgh/Steinberg stuff
> >> was really good.
> >>
> >> ***
> >> I am SO with you there, brother! I remember for my ninth Christmas I
told my
> >> parents I wanted Stravinsky conducting his three big ballets. I got the
Le
> >> Sacre and Firebird LPs but there was no Petrushka, so Mom and Dad
persuaded
> >> me to settle for the $1.99 Pittsburgh/Steinberg performance on
Westminister
> >> Gold. I grew to love it so much I never went back to look for a
Petrushka
> >> with Stravinsky conducting. The Schubert symphony disc in that Command
> >> series was also just astounding.
> >>
> >> Finally, I just wanted to say that I have discussed these topics before
only
> >> to be berated on this list for repeating what guys like Martuge, Steve
> >> Hoffmann and Bernie Solomon said to me. Bear in mind that the office
for DCC
> >> was not far from where I worked (as the classical guy at the Tower
Records
> >> in Woodland Hills.) PLEASE - do not come on here and tell me I'm a
bleeping
> >> liar and how could I stand to circulate such myths. I have no idea why
these
> >> guys would say such things, but I was a good account for them and
perhaps
> >> they put a little gloss on it. They did seem surprised that I seemed to
know
> >> so much about their back catalogue and may have been a bit guarded
about it.
> >> But I used to see Bernie in the store two and three times a week, and I
made
> >> a point of remembering whatever he told me.
> >>
> >> David N. Lewis
> >> Assistant Classical Editor, All Music Guide
> >>
> >> My life is the clearest proof that if you have talent, determination
and
> >> luck, you will make it in the end: Never Give Up. - Sir Georg Solti
>