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Re: [ARSCLIST] Discographical puzzle



Hi Steve,

Here's some more information on Yale's copy, inserted in your comments.

Best, Richard


At 12:03 PM 1/19/2008, you wrote:
On closer examination:

The label designs appear identical. However, the copyright notices differ:

The one lacking the takes says, "This Record (made by patented process) must not be sold below price fixed by patentees"

The other says, "Copyright,patented Record. Not to be publicly performed without license nor sold below price fixed by patentees."


****Yale's copy has this notice.

Both Faery Song sides say (A 3551) at the 9 oclock position on the label.

For The Minstrel, the one without the take says (A 3817) there. The one with the take has "speed 80" and the matrix number without parentheses is beneath the publisher's logo at the bottom of the label.

****Both sides of Yale's copy have matrix number without parentheses at 6 o'clock on the label.



So much for them appearing to be identical labels at first glance.

I'm not an expert on the sequence of English Columbia labels, but they seem to be from the post WW II era, my guess from having handled many of them over the years.

****Yale's copy seems to me to be post WW 2, as well (relatively thin pressing and general "appearance").





All four sides have the W in a circle in a position different from that where the matrix number appers.

The copy without the takes has th R following the number on the label.

A3551, Faery Song, is preceeded by the W in a circle before the mx no as well. On the other side, A3817, there is no W in a circle in that position.

****Yale's copy has W in circle before each mx. no. and has no R on either label -- to me the "no R" suggests late pressing.



On the copy with the takes, there is an R following the number on the label on the Faery Song side but not on The Minstrel.

The circled W preceeds each matrix number in the dead wax.

The old single side number in the dead wax is

Faery    23297
Minstrel    23838

on both.

**** Yale's copy has the same numbers in the same postions. I very much doubt that these recordings were ever issued single-sided, so we might want to consider these numbers as side numbers.

Physical measuremnts from groove beginning to end is identical on both copies.

So it is with variable reluctance that I ask again, "what's going on here?" Perhaps there are significant discographic clues that may flow from this comparison, but can't figger out what they might be.

Is one a dub?

I recall a similar problem on some post-war English recorded Parlophone Tauber discs but don't remember which ones fit into this pattern anymore.

There may be some underlying factory practice at the root of this.

At worst, this should indicate earler or later pressings or, perhaps, different factories. The sequence of labels should come clear once the reason for the change in wording is learned.

Steve Smolian



----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Warren" <richard.warren@xxxxxxxx>
To: <ARSCLIST@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 10:41 PM
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Discographical puzzle


Hi Steve,

I've seen that before, too, and would guess that you have copies from two
different stampers, only one of which shows the take number. I suspect that
what that your copies tell us is that practices at the factory or factories
varied about what numbers got onto pressing parts. Perhaps the disc was
popular. Are there any differences in the labels of the two copies ? Any other
differences between the pressings (graininess of shellac ...) ?


Best, Richard

Quoting Steven Smolian <smolians@xxxxxxxxx>:

My point is that of my two copies with thr R suffix, one has take numbers and one doesn't. So how com?

In the larger sense, does this tell us anything we need to know (discographically speaking) about English Columbia's matrix numbering policies?

Steve Smolian

----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Warren" <richard.warren@xxxxxxxx>
To: <ARSCLIST@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 4:40 PM
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Discographical puzzle



Hi Steve,

3546 [original, no -R] has matrices A 612 and A 1186 for Boughton and Martin, respectively, published April, 1925 (apparently no logs survive to tell rec. date)

3546-R [copy also at Yale] is as you list: matrices are as you and the book about Columbia 10-inch discs agree, Boughton recorded Aug. 26, 1926, Martin rec. Aug. 31, 1926. Columbias this age do not usually show take numbers in the dead wax, so you're lucky this one did on one side. The "R" does normally indicate a remake or replacement.

Best, Richard

At 11:04 AM 1/18/2008, you wrote:
I've two copies of English Columbia 3546 R. One side is The Faery Song from Boughton's "Immortal Hour," matrix A 3551-5. The reverse is Easthope Martin's song, "The Minstrel," matrix A 3817-1. The singer is Philip Heseltine.

The "R" indicates "remake," as far as I can tell, and replaces an earlier, idenical coupling.

One copy has the take number after the matrix number in the dead wax, the other the matrix number only.

What's going on here? Is one a dub? Any idea?

Steve Smolian


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