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Re: [ARSCLIST] the origin of scratchin'
No, no, I got all the answer I need on this topic. Sheesh, whodathunk it would be so controversial.
Lots of great points raised, though. One man's music is another man's noise is another man's
corruption. Differences are good!
-- Tom Fine
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andes, Donald" <Donald.Andes@xxxxxxxxxx>
To: <ARSCLIST@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] the origin of scratchin'
David,
If we are literal enough to interpret the question as you did, I believe
the only possible inventor of the "scratch" should be limited to the
initial inventor(s) of stylus based media; I'm speaking pre-disc record,
and possibly even pre-cylinder.
I feel it safe to assume that said inventor(s) would have most likely
stopped, paused, reversed, or scratched the media inadvertently or
purposely during the test and development phase of their invention.
So now that we've answered Tom in a manner that is equally literal and
useless, I'm sure he'll re-ask the question to include the obvious
assumption he was referencing.
Don Andes
EMI Music
P.S. I don't mean this email to belittle the influence of you or your
"scratching" on the greater fabric of our musical culture. Tom's own
assumed answer pointed to a specific DJ (Grandmaster Flash) so I though
to pick up his assumed reference to Hip Hop, which as I stated earlier
was un-influenced by any High Art vinyl turntablism that may have
proceeded it.
-----Original Message-----
From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List
[mailto:ARSCLIST@xxxxxxx] On Behalf Of David Lewis
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 12:12 PM
To: ARSCLIST@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] the origin of scratchin'
Don,
Don,
At AMG, I'm allowed to have my own opinion. And I don't care what anyone
may have said about it - I was thinking about how many turntablists I
knew of outside of NY that were active that far back - at least seven,
in Ohio, Kentucky, California and Oregon specifically.
I'm not speaking just for me, but for all sorts of people who were
turntabling at that same time not in that core NY scene. They keep
saying that I'm off the question, but really I'm on - what was asked was
who "originated" scratching - the technique - not who first exploited
and popularized it. When "scratching" became popular through hip-hop,
the rest of us - at least the turntablists in Ohio - were scratching our
heads. Our audiences had been sailing chairs at us for doing it for
years. To assume that turntable manipulation and hip-hop is "married at
the hip" is simply wrong.
This is something that possibly can be known, but I don't think the
research is behind it, and I am quite suspicious of that which has been
done. When the best you can say is "Grandwizard Theodore and Cool Herc
are definitely among the originators of scratching and other aspects of
DJing/turntablism.
But I'm pretty sure there were other DJs in the early to mid-70s who
participated in the Bronx dance and party scene that gave birth to
hip-hop as we know it now. New techniques were picked up, passed around
and developed so quickly that it's hard to name one individual who truly
originated them" that sounds a little less like history and more like
hype.
It's nothing personal against James or anyone. But I don't like to be
marginalized either - "none of us did that as part of creating a new
genre of music and culture, one that has had world-wide impact." I
actually
**did** do that as part of a new genre of music and culture which still
thrives, the underground avant-garde scene in Cincinnati, completely
different from anything else and non-existent before I arrived. Does it
have to have a "world-wide" impact to be important?
By the time I am done writing this thing, some MUCH more interesting
posts are arriving. That is the benefit of "not believing the hype."
David N. Lewis
Assistant Classical Editor, All Music Guide
Maybe music was not intended to satisfy the curious definiteness of man.
Maybe it is better to hope that music may always be transcendental
language in the most extravagant sense. ~ Charles Ives
-----Original Message-----
From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List
[mailto:ARSCLIST@xxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Andes, Donald
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 2:41 PM
To: ARSCLIST@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] the origin of scratchin'
David,
Interesting. Your claimed "artificially created hierarchy of history" is
propogated at an institution at which you are an Editor?
http://wm03.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll
Don Andes
EMI Music
-----Original Message-----
From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List
[mailto:ARSCLIST@xxxxxxx] On Behalf Of David Lewis
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 9:57 AM
To: ARSCLIST@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] the origin of scratchin'
Mr. Wolf,
I did perform in public with turntables in the 70s. That was in
Cincinnati.
What I'm saying is that the NY DJs are "arrogant" for claiming to
invented it, and the experts who give them the credit for doing so are
"ignorant" for not looking for it elsewhere. It's an artificially
created hierarchy of history. End of story from me.
David N. Lewis
Assistant Classical Editor, All Music Guide
Maybe music was not intended to satisfy the curious definiteness of man.
Maybe it is better to hope that music may always be transcendental
language in the most extravagant sense. ~ Charles Ives
-----Original Message-----
From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List
[mailto:ARSCLIST@xxxxxxx] On Behalf Of James L Wolf
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 12:27 PM
To: ARSCLIST@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] the origin of scratchin'
Yes, we all did that. But none of us did that as part of creating a new
genre of music and culture, one that has had world-wide impact.
So, no, I don't think your "opinion" has much relevance or validity in
the context of the original question. In this context, to say that you
invented scratching as much the NY DJs did only shows your arrogance and
ignorance with regard to the subject matter.
James
David Lewis <davlew@xxxxxxxxxxxx> 11/08/07 12:00 PM >>>
I beg to differ...this is just my opinion, but I think it has some
validity.
I "invented" scratching just as much as the NY DJs did, and probably
earlier than them. So did countless others - scratching is not an
invention so much as it is a discovery, like discovering electricity, or
America. Any kid with an "N" speed on their turntable who decided to
land there and spin the record around by hand for fun made this same
discovery - no doubt many of you discovered the same thing at some
point. Even before I had a turntable with an N speed I had a toy hippo
that came equipped with a pin in the wheel the size of a phono spindle;
I would pull the tone arm away from the phono and spin the record around
on my hippo. In my case, I don't have any recordings of myself doing
that kind of work before 1980, but I was doing it in the 70s and started
fooling around with turntables from the time I was 7
- that was in the sixties. I certainly didn't hear any "scratching"
elsewhere until the early 1980s, outside of what's mentioned below:
In John Cage's "Cartridge Music" (1962) Cage and David Tudor inserted
twigs and other non-needles into phonograph carts and used them to play
slinkys and things like that. Not the same thing, but related - it
certainly sounds similar.
David N. Lewis
Assistant Classical Editor, All Music Guide
Maybe music was not intended to satisfy the curious definiteness of man.
Maybe it is better to hope that music may always be transcendental
language in the most extravagant sense. ~ Charles Ives
-----Original Message-----
From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List
[mailto:ARSCLIST@xxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Bob Olhsson
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 10:31 AM
To: ARSCLIST@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] the origin of scratchin'
-----Original Message-----
From James L Wolf: "...Grandwizard Theodore and Cool Herc are
definitely
among the originators of scratching and other aspects of
DJing/turntablism.
But I'm pretty sure there were other DJs in the early to mid-70s who
participated in the Bronx dance and party scene that gave birth to
hip-hop as we know it now..."
A fascinating tidbit I learned from one of the Dictators is that New
York punk rock was a product of the very same crowd. It all traces to
one community arts center where everybody rehearsed and hung out
together.
Bob Olhsson Audio Mastery, Nashville TN
Mastering, Audio for Picture, Mix Evaluation and Quality Control Over 40
years making people sound better than they ever imagined!
615.385.8051 http://www.hyperback.com
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received it in error please advise the sender immediately by return email and then delete it from
your system. The unauthorised use, distribution, copying or alteration of this email is strictly
forbidden. If you need assistance please contact us on +44 20 7795 7000.
This email is from a unit or subsidiary of EMI Group Limited.
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