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Re: [ARSCLIST] CD-R question
From: Patent Tactics, George Brock-Nannestad
Hi,
I do not think my media will fit your players - my CDs only measure 12 cm in
diameter, but your players apparently are made for 5".
Kind regards,
George
> Hi John:
>
> We are both speculating, heavily.
>
> I hope we are both around in 50 years to see if 5" digital reader/playback
> devices are still readily
> available. I would argue, they will be. I would say there is too much
> installed base all over the
> world not to make it a viable business model for decades more.
>
> But again, we are both speculating and only living 50 more years will give
> us the answer. I will
> toast both of our good health over a glass of red wine with dinner!
>
> --- Tom Fine
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Spencer" <js@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <ARSCLIST@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 10:05 AM
> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] CD-R question
>
>
> > Good Morning Tom,
> >
> > I don't think you snipped the point I was trying to make. Here is a part
> of my post:
> >
> > <snip>
> >> The quality of the music may be better, but the quality of the media (as
> evidenced by the
> >> dumping of crappy CD-R media in every store, from Wal-Mart to Walgreens)
> does not relieve my
> >> confidence.
> > <snip>
> >
> > My point here is that if someone is going to use CD-R media, PLEASE don't
> use the cheap-o stuff
> > that you find literally everywhere. Furthermore, make multiple copies if
> you can with different
> > batches of media. There have been many posts by experts about good and
> bad media types.
> >
> > Regarding any difference of opinion we may have, please understand that I
> am not advocating
> > "managed storage with off-site backup" for the casual collector that
> wants to digitize his or her
> > holdings. That's a pretty long leap from burning CD-Rs, and not one that
> I would recommend given
> > the scenario. Additionally, I've never recommended people store files on
> hard drives - BAD
> > decision.
> >
> > The points I tried to make (and obviously didn't do a good job!) were:
> >
> > 1. We don't have any idea if optical media PLAYERS will be available in
> 50 years
> > 2. Even if I bought a pallet full of CD players, I cannot guarantee they
> will operate in 50 years
> > (even if I shrink-wrapped a technician to store with them)
> > 3. The proliferation of various formats is not necessarily a good thing
> (you mention photoCD, I
> > could add many more)
> > 4. The CD players that are being built now are essentially "throw- aways"
> (read - junk)
> >
> > As you mentioned, there are many "in the cloud" storage options that
> could be considered as
> > alternate backup locations (Amazon S3, .mac accounts, etc.). They are
> popping up every day -
> > however, they too may go out of business and I'm out of luck....but for
> now, they are realistic
> > backup alternatives that are extremely cheap. External drives as you
> mentioned are good as well.
> > In the archival world, I guess they call it "geographical separation" - I
> would refer to it as
> > "covering your backside".
> >
> > It is not a "Kia" vs. "Cadillac" scenario, there are many "Chevrolet -
> Ford" solutions out there
> > (but ouch, I hate making digital storage comparisons to car
> manufacturers.....).
> >
> > At the end of the day, the collector that occasionally scans this list
> and draws the conclusion
> > that "make a CD-R and you'll be fine" is, in my opinion, leaving with a
> misguided mandate.
> >
> > I have NO problem with well-made CD-Rs - but you have to factor in the
> reality that you will
> > probably have to migrate those as well sometime, to whatever "flavor of
> the year" is regarding
> > digital storage available to the masses.
> >
> > Actively managed storage can take many forms, from full-scale monoliths
> with high costs, to
> > simply pulling the CD-Rs you have off of the shelf every 3-5 years and
> bumping them to another
> > batch.
> >
> > John Spencer
> > BMS/ Chace LLC
> > email: jspencer@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> > web: www.bmschace.com
> >
> >
> >
> > On Jan 6, 2008, at 7:18 AM, Tom Fine wrote:
> >
> >> Hi John:
> >>
> >> Happy New Year all around.
> >>
> >> I think a big difference of opinion we have is that I think it's a Great
> Thing to have many
> >> different formats/standards for the 5" laser disc. To me, that's
> insurance that reader/playback
> >> drives will be made for a long time. The trend so far is that every time
> a new format/standard
> >> comes along, soon afterward the manufacturing MO becomes universal
> players/drive that read/play
> >> ALL previous formats. Look in a modern DVD player user manual and check
> out how many formats
> >> you can play on these things, including photoCD (something I'd argue is
> a fringe format that
> >> never really caught on with the masses) and data CD's full of MP3 and
> sometimes WinMedia files.
> >> And some players now accept flash media so you can take pix and video
> cards right out of your
> >> digi-camera and look at them right on your widescreen flat-panel
> (sometimes the flat-panels
> >> themselves take the cards directly). My point is, this is truly a
> massive Mass Market and it's
> >> not going to just dry up anytime soon. All these "issues" about the
> hi-def formats will get
> >> settled in the market and universal players will then quickly happen --
> if that doesn't happen
> >> in a couple of years please regurgitate this message and tell me "I told
> you so."
> >>
> >> As for CDR media, I don't see what your issue is. Of course a long- term
> archive should be on
> >> migrated and mirrored hard drives nowadays. But CDR is cheap and
> available and I'd bet that
> >> higher- grade media will be OK in proper storage conditions as a backup.
> What is much more
> >> worrisome to me is a newcomer to this list getting an idea that CDR is a
> "bad format" and then
> >> doing a bunch of transfers onto a single hard drive and having all that
> work just blow up and
> >> be unusable one day. Hard drives are KNOWN to fail, and usually in a lot
> fewer than 10 years.
> >> CDR is THEORIZED to fail at some point (what exact point seems to be a
> matter of great debate)
> >> when stored under proper conditions (ie low dust, low light, low
> humiditiy, proper temp). So I
> >> would say to the small-scale archivist or collector -- most certainly do
> make liberal use of CDR
> >> media but don't rely on it as your ONLY digital format for the long-
> term. And for goodness sake,
> >> invest in a second disc drive and at least keep a local mirror of
> everything. You'll be so
> >> grateful when that computer konks out one day (hopefully the konk-out
> didn't take out your
> >> second hard drive, but my experience is you're relatively safe if the
> second drive is
> >> external -- barring something like a massive power problem or a house
> fire, of course).
> >>
> >> If you have an extensive investment of time or your transfers are of
> great monetary or cultural
> >> value, I'd argue that you gotta bite the bullet and go with managed
> storage with an off-site
> >> secure backup system in place. But this
> expensive/complex/industrial-grade solution is just not
> >> appropriate or in financial reach for most people on this list (ie
> small-scale archivists and
> >> collectors). One relatively cheap/easy thing to do if you have just a
> few real treasures among
> >> an otherwise ordinary collection of digital media is to simply FTP those
> treasures to your
> >> website if you have one. Most website hosts these days give you a 1 gig
> or more of storage as
> >> part of the package, and more gigs usually doesn't cost anything. The
> idea is, there's your
> >> remote backup. You of course can do much better, but this is the
> cheap/easy/available solution
> >> for the small archive or collector. Make the files inaccessible from
> your website if they have
> >> copyright or other sensitivities, of course. There are also plenty of
> 3rd parties online who
> >> offer free or near-free file storage. For instance, gmail and yahoo give
> you a 1 gig mailbox,
> >> so you can simply e-mail yourself a file or two. I'm sure this all
> sounds crazy to the
> >> inustrial-strength crowd, but like I said, most members of this list
> don't work for well-funded
> >> universities or professional data-management companies so they need
> small-scale/low-cost
> >> solutions. I'm throwing out some "Kia" ideas here. If you can afford
> "Cadillac," definitely go
> >> that way.
> >>
> >> -- Tom Fine
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Spencer"
> <js@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> To: <ARSCLIST@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 10:17 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] CD-R question
> >>
> >>
> >> <snip>
> >>
> >>> Here's where we diverge on opinion - there are currently (I think) 13
> DVD specs (at least 6 of
> >>> which are not recognized by the DVD patent- holder consortium), and now
> we have blu-ray and
> >>> DVD-HD - a battle on many levels (one is the movie studios desire to
> continue to have a
> >>> physical disc to sell that is not easily copied). This convoluted
> "soup" of formats
> >>> (notwithstanding patent issues) does not convince me that the life of
> the CD will be greatly
> >>> enhanced.
> >>>
> >> <snip>
> >>>
> >>> Best regards,
> >>> John
> >>>
> >>> John Spencer
> >>> BMS/ Chace LLC
> >>> 1801 8th Ave. S. Suite 200
> >>> Nashville, TN 37203
> >>> office (615) 385-1251
> >>> fax (615) 385-0153
> >>> cell (615) 714-1199
> >>> email: jspencer@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> web: www.bmschace.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Jan 5, 2008, at 8:15 PM, Tom Fine wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> You could think, once a medium goes out of "mass" status, how many
> years until all the
> >>>> playback equipment dies and nothing new is being made? Well, when
> exactly? LPs haven't been a
> >>>> mass medium for almost 2 decades now. Still plenty of turntables and
> cartridges available
> >>>> and the LP medium has a healthy niche (some could argue more
> economically viable than most CD
> >>>> releases). How about cassettes? They seem to be a quicker-to-the-grave
> medium. CD's passed
> >>>> cassettes in I believe the early 90's. But cassettes are still a mass
> medium in some parts of
> >>>> the 3rd world. You can still buy a variety of cassette decks and
> walkmans:
> >>>> http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_kk_1?ie=UTF8&search-alias=audio-
> >>>> video&field-keywords=cassette%20player
> >>>>
> >>>> Now, there's also the argument that magnetic tape and grooved disks
> are technologies that can
> >>>> be replicated with mid-20th century level or older technologies
> whereas CD playback is,
> >>>> well, somewhat akin to rocket science.
> >>>>
> >>>> But, 5" discs got another leg with the DVD medium and they might get
> yet another fresh wind
> >>>> with hi-def discs. Blowing the other way is the wind of downloads and
> iPods -- where there
> >>>> are not physical mass media but rather computer files transmitted
> over the Internet and
> >>>> then perhaps around homes to media-less playback systems. I don't
> doubt the future is one
> >>>> without packaged physical mass media for audio and video content, but
> it's not all there yet
> >>>> and the installed and owned base of 5" discs is enormous (I _think_
> that more CD's were sold
> >>>> worldwide so far than all mesaured sales of all LPs since 1949 -- and
> that's not counting
> >>>> the fact that there might be a 1:1 ratio or greater of pressed CD's to
> legal or illegal
> >>>> copies that are essentially bit-by-bit replicas). Plus, as of now the
> quality of the 5" disc
> >>>> media is usually better than what you can get over the ether on your
> media-less playback
> >>>> system (that will not be true forever, indeed hopefully not for much
> longer).
> >>>>
> >>>> So bottom line, I'll give the 5" discs another 50 years of viability
> but I don't think they
> >>>> will be the dominant mass medium in the "first world" for too much
> longer -- and I think the
> >>>> places still cassette-dominant will leapfrog over the 5" disc media
> and go right to the
> >>>> over-ether media-less model. For what it's worth, I have a 1986 CD
> player that still works
> >>>> just fine. To my great joy, it was designed future-looking enough to
> be able to play most
> >>>> CDR media. The make is Teac and the price was not very high when I
> bought it as a poor
> >>>> college kid blowing some summer loot, so this was no high-grade
> special machine in its day.
> >>>> My point is, 20-year- old CD technology works fine in a modern
> context. I have no reason to
> >>>> believe my 2005 vintage Marantz SACD/DVD/CD player won't work in 20
> years. That would get
> >>>> past the 50-year-viability mark for the CD medium (introduced 1982)
> and I betcha 5" disc
> >>>> players will be rolling off Asian assembly lines for at least another
> decade, probably
> >>>> longer.
> >>>>
> >>>> Let me just add that I think managed hard-drive-based archiving is a
> better idea nowadays and
> >>>> will be an ever-better idea as the storage media get cheaper, denser
> and hopefully more
> >>>> reliable.
> >>>>
> >>>> -- Tom Fine
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard L. Hess"
> <arclists@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>> To: <ARSCLIST@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>> Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 8:36 PM
> >>>> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] CD-R question
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> At 08:11 PM 2008-01-05, John Spencer wrote:
> >>>>>> Richard (and more so to Mr. Friedman),
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Do we have any concrete expectations that CD drives will be
> available
> >>>>>> in 50 years? Please point me to the information that guarantees
> that,
> >>>>>> I would be happy to be reassured that CD drives will be available
> >>>>>> then. I tend to be much more pessimistic about hardware/ software
> >>>>>> availability given the 50-year target mentioned.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hi, John,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Happy New Year!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I think we'll be in as good or better shape playing back CDs in 50
> years as we will be
> >>>>> playing back reel tapes in 35-40 years which is approx the 50-year
> time frame that LoC was
> >>>>> still advocating transfers to 2-track tapes.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> There are just too many, and they're not going to all break.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> As with any media, as the supply of machines dries up it's the
> archive's responsibility to
> >>>>> migrate/reformat before they cannot. I think we've had this
> discussion before <smile>.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Richard
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Richard L. Hess email: richard@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>> Aurora, Ontario, Canada (905) 713 6733 1-877-TAPE-FIX
> >>>>> Detailed contact information: http://www.richardhess.com/tape/
> contact.htm
> >>>>> Quality tape transfers -- even from hard-to-play tapes.
> >>>>
> >>
> >