Re: [ARSCLIST] Wire recorders

[George Brock-Nannestad <pattac@xxxxxxxx>]

From: Patent Tactics, George Brock-Nannestad

In response to David Seubert Fri, 16 Jul 2004 10:00:14

I am leaving the thread hanging, because then this will add to David's input,
adding to Lance Watsky, adding to Eric Jacobs, adding to Mike Csontos who
commented on Alex Hartov.

My bit is interjected:

> This is a very interesting and important topic. In doing any sort of
> preservation (film, video, audio) one must weigh the amount of time and
> money spent making preservation copies against current resources and
> backlog, and frankly, the importance of the material and the nature of the
> content. I always try to keep in the back of my mind that every minute or
> dollar spent on one project means another project waits.
>
> Some formats are clearly off limits to non-experts (2" quad video comes to
> mind) but there aren't that many. Having not worked much with wire, I don't
> know if it should be left to experts only, but it would be easy to find people
> or companies that charge for restoration or transfer with less experience than
> amateurs or hobbyists or even me. Just like getting your car repaired, I think
> everything rests in the reputation and the recommendations your receive from
> others.

----- the real problem with wire is that that the linear speed changes
somewhat during recording (it gets slightly slower on reproduction using
constant speed). This is because during recording and reproduction on
original equipment the storage spool is just that, it is the pickup spool
that determines the speed, and that will only receive few well-wound layers,
because it has a large diameter by design (and the up-and-down movement of
the tone head, like a fishing rod wheel), adding only little to the radius
(and circumference) determining the linear speed. So a modification of a tape
recorder (mainly getting special hubs to interface the non-modern diameter of
the storage spool), using capstan drive and a slight groove ground into the
tone head (to prevent wander of the wire) will get you a good signal that
needs to be speed-increased proportionally to elapsed time. Either you get a
program to do that in a digital version, or you control the speed
continuously of the reproduction of the modified tape recorder. The latter is
more prone to problems. The problem with wires is only with low-quality
wires. Those are not solid nickel, but nickel plating on corrosive steel.
Here, I would probably prefer a re-built wire-recorder with plenty of
lubrication of the wire, and even then success is not guaranteed. By the way,
the signal on solid nickel wires is surprisingly everlasting (provided they
are not deliberately demagnetized), and plated wires are the the same, if
they are kept dry. So, if you do not need your oral history just now, leave
the matter till later. Only, if you fear someone will think that the holding
is fishing line surprisingly made of nickel and on copper reels, please
document your knowledge about the holding.

>
> We often do things in-house which could be done better by someone with more
> specialized knowledge, better equipment, or more experience. But depending on
> the content, it may not even be desirable to pay for the best transfer
> possible. With millions of hours of deteriorating audio, not everything is
> worth spending $100+ an hour on.

----- my view that shocked archivists at IASA is that even a bad or data-reduced
copy of something is better than nothing at all

We often use students to transfer open reel
> tape and cassettes of oral histories, speeches, lectures etc. Do you really
> need an expert to transfer an oral history, when students can accomplish the
> same thing for 1/2 the cost, though they may not always do it perfectly? They
> aren't going to transfer our lacquer disks of the CBS Symphony, but we can get
> a lot done with non-specialist technicians trained in-house.
>
> Lastly, it is too bad that there isn't a grant program like the National
> Film Preservation Foundation where an organization could apply for small
> preservation grants, like for Eric's wires. We have many projects like this
> that we'd like to send out for transfer (and could employ half of ARSC's
> membership with transfer work), but it just isn't worth the trouble to apply
> for a federal grant for project that would cost a couple thousand dollars to
> transfer.
>
> David Seubert
> UCSB

----- I am in general agreement with David (George)

>
> At 09:56 AM 7/16/2004 -0400, you wrote:
> >Eric:
> >
> >I agree with your definition of a professional, as someone who works with
> >wires daily, or at least with regularity, on mechanically reliable/well-tuned
> >equipment. However, it is important to understand that we are in a profession
> >where cost is not regulated. I was recently reviewing a video preservation
> >grant, and found very large differences in the cost that vendors were
> >charging.
> >
> >On one hand, it can be argued that a "well-known" company can stand on its
> >reputation and should charge whatever they choose, but on the other hand lets
> >recognize that their are many brilliant engineers working out of their home
> >and are willing to charge a lower fee. I believe that we need to fight the
> >urge to just believe a company's own PR and to really give these
> >"cottage-type" engineers an opportunity to prove that they can do the work.
> >
> >I am not saying that we should trust everyone that says they can do a
> >preservation service, but we should at least give these engineers the
> >opportunity to prove it by either a demonstration or even better, asking who
> >they have performed the service for and then contacting those folks to find
> >out how the transfer really turned out.

----- George would like to interject: being professional is using the
equipment to hand in a virtuoso way. John R.T. Davies did not use the latest
or even the most expensive equipment, but he new precisely what it would do
for him in any given situation, and he used it most skillfully and obtained
results that some of us would envy.

> >
> >
> >"These opinions are only my own, and do not necessarilly reflects any one
> >elses."
> >
> >Lance Watsky
> >Preservation & Media Specialist
> >The Georgia Archives
> >5800 Jonesboro Road
> >Morrow, GA 30260
> >678-364-3764 (phone)
> >678-364-3860 (fax)
> >lwatsky@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >www.GeorgiaArchives.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List
> >[mailto:ARSCLIST@xxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Eric Jacobs
> >Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 8:11 PM
> >To: ARSCLIST@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> >Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Wire recorders
> >
> >
> >The use of amateur services is not so much about the
> >quality of the sound, but whether the entire asset
> >(the wire) might be lost in an unfortunate "tangle".
> >
> >I know that no one can guarantee that a wire won't
> >accidentally be destroyed, but the probability of
> >success is probably higher (even if marginally so) when
> >done by a professional.  In this case, I'll define
> >"professional" as someone who works with wires
> >daily, or at least with regularity, on mechanically
> >reliable/well-tuned equipment.
> >
> >But I wholeheartedly agree that budget issues frequently
> >get in the way of preserving historically valuable
> >audio assets, and even more so when it comes to making
> >them accessible.  This is sadly a truism across the entire
> >spectrum of historical preservation, not just audio.
> >And certainly a challenge to everyone in this forum.
> >
> >Eric Jacobs
> >The Audio Archive
> >
> >
> >---- Original message ----
> > >Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 18:30:27 EDT
> > >From: Mwcpc6@xxxxxxx
> > >Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Wire recorders
> > >To: ARSCLIST@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >
> > >   In a message dated 7/15/2004 3:36:50 PM Eastern
> > >   Standard Time, alex.hartov@xxxxxxxxxxxxx writes:
> > >
> > >     I acknowledge all the recommendations to go with a
> > >     pro for doing the
> > >     transfer.  I am quite sure it's worth the
> > >     expenditure and would not
> > >     quibble about that.  Unfortunately, I do not have
> > >     a budget for that &
> > >     so will table the project for now.
> > >
> > >   *****************
> > >
> > >   I see this a lot nowadays. I have several
> > >   mechanically functioning wire recorders and in the
> > >   past have made transfers without restoring the
> > >   amplifiers simply connecting the head directly to an
> > >   amplifier's phono input. People have beeh quite
> > >   happy with the result. Some of these have been of
> > >   local interest and, with the permission of the
> > >   originators, copies have been donated to local
> > >   museum archives.  In some cases I have retained the
> > >   original wires so professional restorations could be
> > >   done if desired.
> > >
> > >   However, since the Internet has made it possible, I
> > >   have felt it ethical to inform a person asking, that
> > >   professional services are available and I provide
> > >   references, perhaps to some of those on this list.
> > >   Now, when I ask, perhaps months later, about the
> > >   wires (or discs or tapes) I get a response like the
> > >   one above.
> > >
> > >   Not that it applies in this case, but if a person
> > >   has 50+ year old recordings that he has made
> > >   himself, it is quite unlikely that he is really
> > >   going to get around to funding professional
> > >   processing of the work and equally unlikely that the
> > >   executor of his estate will have any idea of what
> > >   they are.
> > >
> > >   Whenever I see the advice that, if it is worth
> > >   doing; it is worth doing "right" I wonder how much
> > >   is being lost just because there isn't the funding
> > >   for proper professional restoration work.  Perhaps
> > >   it might be worth suggesting that an improvised,
> > >   amateur transfer be made, if only as a proof or work
> > >   print, to preserve and evaluate the material, if
> > >   nothing better is immediately practical.
> > >
> > >   Mike Csontos

----- comment to Mike from George: I have a friend and professional who says
"anything worth doing is worth doing badly", meaning that it might not be
done at all, if we stood around waiting for the perfect (solution or
funding). This in particular referred to discographies, but I think it is
universal. At least there is a break-even between waiting until the
technology is available and the original carrier has suffered destruction of
quality.

Best wishes,


George