Re: [ARSCLIST] the origin of scratchin'

[James L Wolf <jwol@xxxxxxx>]

Again, I refer you to the original question. What you, Christian
Marclay, John Cage and and other non-hip-hop people may have done with
turntables might be historically significant or not from our vantage
point today. But, historically, it also has nothing to do with hip-hop
or the turntable techniques which were being developed in the South
Bronx in the early 1970s.

It's a common logical falacy to assert that precedence equals influence
(or some variety of that). But if you look at the historical record, you
would be hard put to find much relationship between the way the white
avant-guarde artists used turntables and the way the black and Peurto
Rican dance-party DJs used them.

Of course, the importance of keeping a continous beat and tempo
required a different approach to the turntable as an instrument. Thus,
even if the Bronx DJs had been exposed to the avant-guarde DJs (a very
big if), their early techniques —  looping, needle-dropping,
scratching and mixer use — were developed towards very different ends
requiring an extremely discliplined and completely new method of playing
the turntable.

You clearly have a personal axe to grind on this issue. To be fair, so
do I. Even thirty years down the road, hip-hop is not afforded much
respect from the gate-keepers of "serious" music. I've lost count of the
number of times I've heard it dismissed by classical scholars and the
like as "noise" or some other equivilant of the "jungle music" epithet
jazz got thrown at it in the twenties. Even on this list, some people
feel it is unseemly for the Library of Congress to include hip-hop
records on its National Recording Registry. I leave it to others to
figure out why there might such prejudice against this uniquely American
art form.

James

>>> David Lewis <davlew@xxxxxxxxxxxx> 11/8/2007 12:57 PM >>>
Mr. Wolf,

I did perform in public with turntables in the 70s. That was in
Cincinnati. 

What I'm saying is that the NY DJs are "arrogant" for claiming to
invented
it, and the experts who give them the credit for doing so are
"ignorant" for
not looking for it elsewhere. It's an artificially created hierarchy
of
history. End of story from me.

David N. Lewis
Assistant Classical Editor, All Music Guide

Maybe music was not intended to satisfy the curious definiteness of
man.
Maybe it is better to hope that music may always be transcendental
language
in the most extravagant sense. ~ Charles Ives


-----Original Message-----
From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List
[mailto:ARSCLIST@xxxxxxx] On Behalf Of James L Wolf
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 12:27 PM
To: ARSCLIST@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] the origin of scratchin'

Yes, we all did that. But none of us did that as part of creating a
new
genre of music and culture, one that has had world-wide impact.

So, no, I don't think your "opinion" has much relevance or validity in
the
context of the original question. In this context, to say that you
invented
scratching as much the NY DJs did only shows your arrogance and
ignorance
with regard to the subject matter.

James

>>> David Lewis <davlew@xxxxxxxxxxxx> 11/08/07 12:00 PM >>>
I beg to differ...this is just my opinion, but I think it has some
validity.

I "invented" scratching just as much as the NY DJs did, and probably
earlier
than them. So did countless others - scratching is not an invention so
much
as it is a discovery, like discovering electricity, or America. Any kid
with
an "N" speed on their turntable who decided to land there and spin the
record around by hand for fun made this same discovery - no doubt many
of
you discovered the same thing at some point. Even before I had a
turntable
with an N speed I had a toy hippo that came equipped with a pin in the
wheel
the size of a phono spindle; I would pull the tone arm away from the
phono
and spin the record around on my hippo. In my case, I don't have any
recordings of myself doing that kind of work before 1980, but I was
doing it
in the 70s and started fooling around with turntables from the time I
was 7
- that was in the sixties. I certainly didn't hear any "scratching"
elsewhere until the early 1980s, outside of what's mentioned below:

In John Cage's "Cartridge Music" (1962) Cage and David Tudor inserted
twigs
and other non-needles into phonograph carts and used them to play
slinkys
and things like that. Not the same thing, but related - it certainly
sounds
similar.

David N. Lewis
Assistant Classical Editor, All Music Guide

Maybe music was not intended to satisfy the curious definiteness of
man.
Maybe it is better to hope that music may always be transcendental
language
in the most extravagant sense. ~ Charles Ives


-----Original Message-----
From: Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List
[mailto:ARSCLIST@xxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Bob Olhsson
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 10:31 AM
To: ARSCLIST@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] the origin of scratchin'

-----Original Message-----
>From James L Wolf: "...Grandwizard Theodore and Cool Herc are
definitely
among the originators of scratching and other aspects of
DJing/turntablism.
But I'm pretty sure there were other DJs in the early to mid-70s who
participated in the Bronx dance and party scene that gave birth to
hip-hop
as we know it now..."

A fascinating tidbit I learned from one of the Dictators is that New
York
punk rock was a product of the very same crowd. It all traces to one
community arts center where everybody rehearsed and hung out together.

Bob Olhsson Audio Mastery, Nashville TN
Mastering, Audio for Picture, Mix Evaluation and Quality Control
Over 40 years making people sound better than they ever imagined!
615.385.8051 http://www.hyperback.com