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Re: [ARSCLIST] Modern Cylinder Phonograph
--- Steven Smolian <smolians@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Yes, this was Walter Welch's idea. I heard it in person. I didn't
> like it
> then, and the passage of time and recent digital developments
> haven't
> improved my opinion. Just my opinion, of course.
>
> Steve Smolian
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tom Fine" <tflists@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <ARSCLIST@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 8:01 PM
> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Modern Cylinder Phonograph
>
>
> >I think yeah, if you're a big-time archive or rich collector, then
> buy the
> >stylus-cartridge device. For the rest of us, those who might have
> mild
> >interest in Edison cylinders and might own one or two players,
> then
> >experimenting with acoustic recording is fine. My father's tricks
> worked
> >well and his results sounded great -- enough so that some were
> used in
> >commercial projects (the whole reason he developed his methods).
> Like I
> >said, I don't know any of the secret sauces, but I believe the
> overall
> >approach was actually to EMBRACE the horn -- treat the Edison
> player as an
> >acoustic instrument. He had great-condition players that he
> restored by
> >hand and an ample arsenal of big horns, so I think he experimented
> to get
> >the best horn/player combo to fit the acoustic space in which he
> worked.
> >And he knew a thing or two or three about microphone technique and
> had a
> >very well-stocked microphone closet. So this wasn't weekend
> amateur
> >tinkering. Like I said, the stylus/cartridge approach probably
> yields more
> >flexible results in a modern context, and is non-dependent on
> having a
> >great-condition player and big horn. I had some good results
> recording from
> >a concert cylinder player for a private collector. He was
> extremely happy
> >with our results. We did a lot of experimenting and ended up also
> embracing
> >the horn and the acoustic space, favoring an instrumentation-grade
> (ie
> >high-spl) electret mic placed about 1 foot in front of the center
> of the
> >horn bel (about like mic'ing a tuba front-on). I was surprised
> that the
> >best horn for the job was a tuba-sized brass unit; I would have
> thought the
> >larger wooden units would sound better but they didn't. There's
> only so
> >much you can do for these things, they just don't approach
> fidelity to
> >original source, but they can be made quite listenable, and I
> think the
> >best clues about this go back to how people actually used to enjoy
>
> >listening to them in their day (the best systems had big horns --
> little
> >horns are shrill and tinny, kinda like trumpets ;) ).
> >
> > I should mention that I have a video of the Syracuse University
> sound
> > archives from back in the late 70's or early 80's. One of the
> systems they
> > show off is a fully acoustic way of transferring "78" disks of
> various
> > types. They had two mechanically synchronized players with BIG
> acoustic
> > horns. They would use some sort of method of playing two copies
> of the
> > same disk, recording from both horns and using some sort of
> cancelling
> > mechanism to make the music stand out from the noise. I forgot
> the name of
> > the old guy who ran this setup, but Bob Hodge will know exactly
> of which I
> > speak. I also don't remember any particulars about how this
> worked, Bob
> > probably knows that too.
> >
> > So no offense, but I think it's a blanket statement to say all
> recording
> > from acoustic horns is "perverse." Er, one could argue that
> caring about
> > such low-quality sound and out-dated content is a bit perverse
> but I'm
> > certainly not.
> >
> > -- Tom Fine
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Steven Smolian" <smolians@xxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <ARSCLIST@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 7:40 PM
> > Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Modern Cylinder Phonograph
> >
> >
> >> The idea of recording off a horn seems completely perverse to
> me.
> >>
> >> Horn design was empirical and, at various frequencies, created
> nodes
> >> during recording. Those are inevitable. Adding those inherent
> in the
> >> playback mechanism increases distortion needlessly when
> electrical
> >> reproduction is available. Using elecrical reproduction in an
> >> uncalbrated or uncontrolled manner and using the results to
> claim
> >> equality with acoustical reproduction ignores that, properly
> done,
> >> electrical results are superior, i.e., do not create additional
> bad
> >> sound.
> >>
> >> That it is so expensive is unfortunate (good word here) but
> using less
> >> good sound - electrical or acoustical- because it is less
> expensive
> >> violates the purpose of the transfer process- to give as
> faithful a
> >> reproduction of the original as possible.
> >>
> >> Steven Smolian
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "David Breneman" <david_breneman@xxxxxxxxx>
> >> To: <ARSCLIST@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 7:14 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [ARSCLIST] Modern Cylinder Phonograph
> >>
> >>
> >>> --- Tom Fine <tflists@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> My dad had a
> >>>> few tricks on recording from
> >>>> Edison horns, but I don't know any of them.
> >>>
> >>> I think the main goal, if you're doing it accoustically, is
> >>> to have as little air mass between the diaphragm of the
> >>> reproducer and the diaphragm of the microphone as possible.
> >>> I picked up a couple old Shure lavs a few years ago. (These
> >>> are the "old school" lavalier mics that hang around your neck
> >>> on a cord, not the modern type that clip to a necktie, collar,
> >>> etc.) Each one is about the size of a small felt tip marker,
> >>> and I'd imagine they'd be just about the right diameter to plug
> >>> into the rubber hose in place of the horn, which would
> >>> provide the mic with vibration isolation as well as close
> >>> coupling to the reproducer diaphragm. The only thing that's
> >>> kept me from trying this is that the TV studio I got them
> >>> from cut the cords off to make cords for other mics! I
> >>> need to take the time to get a mic cord, cut the female
> >>> end off it and solder it to the terminals of the mic (the
> >>> cord is permanently attached for compactness). Perpetually
> >>> deferred project.
This post is a little hard to follow as to who is replying
to whom. Could I make a friendly suggestion that extraneous
attributed text be trimmed (which I haven't done to make a
point) and top-posting be eschewed? I'm not criticizing Steve,
just suggesting a "best practice" as we say in the IT Biz.
David Breneman david_breneman@xxxxxxxxx
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