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Re: [ARSCLIST] Analog to digital capture question



Dick,

I would pretty much confirm all of Tom's observations regarding trying to obtain a good quality transfer from disks. Although I have had little time for my own collection, we have spent many hours attempting to get the best reproduction from disks submitted to us for restoration and digitising.

To do it right can be a painstaking and expensive process. There is just no substitute for things such as a proper record cleaner, a high quality turntable and arm, as well as a good quality preamp. It adds up quickly (my guess is that we have over $20K invested just in disk reproduction equipment, not including any A to D convertors) The whole issue of high quality A/D convertors is a post unto itself. We have spent hundreds of hours evaluating various A-D and D-A convertors, and the various tradeoffs can become overwhelming.

All this can be rather daunting for the average consumer/hobbyist. The tradeoff here is whether it is worthwhile to make a flawed transfer of a disk, or to simply go out and buy the CD (which may or may not be well mastered). Obviously, if a CD is not available, then you don't have a choice (which, unfortunately, is the case with much of my own personal collection, which still awaits my attention!)

Sadly, there is no easy route to audio nirvana...

Scott D. Smith

Chicago Audio Works, Inc.

Tom Fine wrote:

REgarding Karl's post about ticks and pops, my opinion about record surface noise is this:

1. I don't even bother with badly damaged or really badly made LPs. Forget it. It's just an excercise in frustration. Find another copy. If there is no other copy, you must use extreme measures and expect poor end product sound quality compared to cases where you didn't use extreme measures.

2. The most important thing with transferring typical LPs is, clean them and clean them well. I use a VPI machine, worth every penny. The second most important thing is, make sure your stylus is clean. I still use an old Discwasher brush and fluid. Next in line of importance is use a good cartridge (ie one that is not too colored -- they're all colored but some are flatter and more accurate than others, to the point of being very transparent) and a good preamp (ie one that won't overload on the extremes of the RIAA curve and one that is very close to the curve). Others think it's best to transfer flat and then do RIAA curve in the computer. I've tried that and do not like the results in most cases. I definitely have a bias toward keeping as much processing as possible for analog material in the analog domain.

3. While I transfer a record, I listen. I don't go off and get a cup of coffee, I don't make cellphone calls, I don't chit-chat, I listen. And I make notes as to where there are problems worth correcting in the computer (ie last few seconds of B2 have a series of ticks). This then makes the less enjoyable part (computer work) go faster.

4. One of my audio mentors, Art Shifrin, is an ace at manually removing ticks and pops in Soundforge. He taught me the tricks and they work fantastic. Mostly, I use the pencil tool, zoomed in at 1:1, to re-write the tick/pop as the proper waveform. It's a learned skill but it becomes self-evident after a while. Somewhat harder is carefully rewriting mangled waves from longer "crick-crackle" kind of vinyl damage, which is usually an injury to the groove itself. I don't even attempt this when there's something like a hole or wart in the vinyl because there is no underlying information to fix. Like I said, I try to avoid outright junky records.

5. Another problem with vinyl that is just not fixable is groove distortion, where a groove was either overcut or has been damaged with time or bad pressing so the needle can't ride it properly. You find this with some older records, especially toward the inner label. I had a couple where I thought that my system wasn't good enough but I took them to a super-high-end hifi shop and tried to play them on systems that cost more than my vehicles. Still no joy, although one interesting learning is that different cartridges/tonearms resonate at different frequencies in these bad grooves, so what exactly is distorted varies. Alas, it's usually around violin or horn frequencies, which is a big bummer for classical records. In the case of these records, I found other copies and in a couple of cases, all copies had the same problem which tells me it's a mastering or manufacturing problem. One old hand at LP mastering told me that cartridges were stiffer and heavier back in the early days of stereo, so a problem like that would be bullied through on the playback, eventually gouging the groove and rendering the LP to skipping. Modern, lighter, more flexible cartridges just bounce around and resonate. This problem is not common at all on post-mid-60's LPs, in my experience, but mastering was more conservative later on and in some cases vinyl got better (softer/quieter).

6. I am very hesitant to use digi-tools to auto-zap ticks and pops. I find that all but the very good and very expensive remove parts of the music. Some of the Sadie examples Graham Newton has sent me convince me that that particular tool (which is very expensive) is useful on older, lower-fidelity disks like radio transcriptions and probably music 78's where one must work off shellac because metal parts aren't available. I think the Bias tools are also pretty good if used conservatively. If I have a record that is just popcorn crackle but doesn't have other problems, I will use Soundforge's vinyl tool but with the settings made much more conservative than default. It still removes too much air and space for my liking and also will zap an occasional music transient, but sometimes there is so much popcorn that they can't all be practically zapped by hand. If I were working for a client or restoring something for release, I'd keep the clock running but do all the tick-zapping by hand. But this is an issue of personal taste. If you can't hear anything taken away, use the digi-tools to your heart's content. I also am very hesitant to go after tape hiss, but that's just me.

7. Finally, what I did with my LPs was divide into three categories -- 1) excellent condition, excellent sound, easy transfer candidates. In these cases, if there is a CD version out there, I'll compare. It's about 60-40 that the CD sounds better to my ears than the LP but I generally keep the LP anyway. In the cases where the CD was badly remastered, I'll transfer the LP and thoroughly enjoy the convenience of the transfer CD. 2) excellent condition but not the greatest-sounding albums, see if there is a bearable CD out there already. This is the bulk of the collection. These go about 75-25 that the sound improved in the CD remaster. Depressingly, about a quarter of them have WORSE sounding CD remasters. Some albums were just poorly made, but I think many suffer from bad LP mastering decisions (EQ, compression, levels) and then poorer CD remastering decisions (EQ, compression, over-loud, digital problems). 3) poor condition, low priority for transfer. In these cases, if there is a bearable CD, the LP gets donated to the Salvation Army. If the material never made it to CD, I ask myself if it would ever be enjoyable to listen to a transfer of that LP. Usually, the answer is no. In the few cases where the music is so compelling and likely never to make it to CD (for instance, cases where I know or am pretty sure the master is lost or unplayable), I will use extreme measures including wet-playing to try and get usable sound quality. There have only been a handful of these.

One man's opinions, etc. Happy Thanksgiving to all.

-- Tom Fine





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